Proposed letter to NCSoft - L2Blah

skeetskeet · 05-26-2006, 11:09 AM

Alright, below is what I was able to do up real quick. This is a big issue that pages and pages could be written about so I tried to keep it relatively short.

I also didn't want to put too much effort into it considering that once we all start posting they will simply just start dealing and wont care too much about the content. If you guys see something major missing from it though post it and i'll revise as needed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To: NCSoft NA
A forward to the Lineage players:

Whether or not you feel you are affected by bots, you are. Botting and third party programs are detrimental to the Lineage community. Raid boss farmers and botters affect hunting locations, the in-game economy, and overall game content. The problem is so bad that on a daily basis honest people are leaving the game because they have had enough and do not know what to do about it.

What is there to do about this major problem though? NCSoft wants us to deal with this issue in game; they picture a virtual world where the inhabitants are able to solve in-game problems on their own. This is all good on paper but utterly falls apart when looked at realistically. The fact of the matter is these bots are able to go about their farming 24 hours a day with the aid of either autonomous software or simply a few people that plays the toon in shifts. Killing these botters and farmers does nothing, as the experience grind and time loss from not hunting tends to not impact their ability to continue farming for profit. Report these farmers/botters? Everyone knows at this point this accomplishes nothing. When a farmer/botter is reported consistently for a month, and 6 months down the road that same farmer group is in the same spot farming it shows that NCSoft obviously does not care about their legitimate customers nor have the ability to enforce their own rules. If NCSoft can not maintain control of their own game environment which they have ultimate power over, how do they expect their customers to do so and have fun playing the game they love in the process?

The raid boss farmers especially kill the enjoyment of this game and ruin one of the major selling points the game has to offer. Raid bosses give clans and alliances an opportunity to get together and defeat something as a collective while having fun. It also enables these same clans and alliances to outfit their loyal and hardworking members in effective gear to handle the other challenges this game has to offer such as the XP grind, PVP, and castle sieges. This aspect of the game is all but gone now, especially on the Bartz server, where the opportunities to raid are now few and far apart. These opportunities are non-existent because raid boss farmers have the schedule down to the letter of when each raid boss spawns. Even the most organized clans on the server have a hard time competing because we are not able to stay up 24hrs a day 7 days a week to camp raid boss spawns. The game for these raid boss farmers is their job! They can work on 8 hour shift rotations and only do raid bosses because they profit from it through real life currency, which as its written all over your companies EULA, is against the rules.

All these issues are well known though so there is almost no point in continuing. This letter is just to inform the people at NCSoft that there are people who care enough about this issue to take things a bit further. We have tried to PK the bots off to no avail, we have tried to report them repeatedly to no avail, we have tried to outrun them to raid bosses to no avail. It is time for you NCSoft to step up and do the professional thing and deal with this situation. Do what everyone knows you are capable of doing. Yes, I might be difficult to catch every farmer/bot group running around but when know groups are continually farming raid bosses and are around 6 months later after being continually petitioned, it shows a serious lack of dedication to solving the problem on your part.

As a player base we have done a lot to solve the problem but most have us have now come to the realization that this is out of our hands. Some people are going so far as to try and organize a full month’s worth boycott of L2 to show just how drastic this issue is. Its time NCSoft as a company, begins following time tested best business practices and look out for their true and loyal customers.

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skeetskeet · 05-26-2006, 11:11 AM

For anyone that does not know what this is about. This copied from the "its hopeless thread"

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeetskeet

Since most ppl who post on Blah no longer post or even go to l2.com, I say we make a date where everyone here posts on the officials forums a petition letter.

Just have someone write up something standard regarding bots, raid boss farmers and the like. Then everyone copies and pastes it into a new thread on the official boards. Think that would get their attention?

anger · 05-26-2006, 11:28 AM

if NCSoft had a nickel for every letter they received like this....

Dua · 05-26-2006, 11:52 AM

if you do send it in, don't use your registered email or account or anything... they'll ban you!

Matey · 05-26-2006, 11:56 AM

they dont have a nickel for every letter like this... but they do have $15USD per month for every bot/farmer account.
and of course they have their main money making servers in Korea and Japan...

DamienSin · 05-26-2006, 12:02 PM

Well written Skeet! Whats the next step? NcSoft has ignored letters of this nature repeatedly in the past but it cant hurt to keep trying.

Ossie · 05-26-2006, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeetskeet

Raid boss farmers and botters affect hunting locations, the in-game economy, and overall game content.

Though botting is against the EULA and thus a banable offense, farming per se is not, therefore a farmer comprised not of bots but of a live person duo or tri-boxing accounts is perfectly legal. In fact we are all farmers in a sense, as we all hunt the same spot repeatedly.

With this in mind, let me move forward and state that, it is against the EULA to sell in game items for RL money. However, there is no way NC can link an in game transaction to a RL transaction unless they can actually monitor the activities of a person outside of the game, (which would requiere a court order in most cases).

There is no way for NC to link specific accounts to say IGE or any other company. They could however, to pursue those companies per se, have them shut down their websites and close the end front of the sales channel. The selling of items for RL money is not about fighting the activites generating the in game item, it's about shutting down the sales channels.

Imagine this, I am a pro-farmer, I have 3 account which I tri box live, I spend all day long making adena which I latter give to my boss by the end of the week, so each week I turn in say 50m adena (just to say), I do shifts with my 3 brothers so we're at it 24/7. Can I be banned?, of course not, I can just say my farmer boss is my RL friend and we made an agreement to "join our wealth" every week, I can just say I like giving my stuff away as it "rewarding to me", etc... so no options there. Can I be banned for using 3 accounts, NO! as it is not against the EULA. Can I be banned for being on 24/7? NO! I pay for that and I can be on as much as I want to. Can I be banned for account sharing?, NO! and besides there's no way for them to prove that I do, I can make hundreds of excuses for that, even roleplay as if I was 3 different people. Nothing can be done on the front end against live farmers.

It's the same about buyer, say I buy 300m adena and get the in game transaction monitered, the GM will ask me why did you got that?, I will answer he was my friend and is quitting so he sold all his stuff and gave it to me, or.. I dunno I was standing around and this guy asked me to hold it for him, or... I did a favour for him once, so it's a loan. You can come up with thousands of explanations, doesn't need to be a logical one, there's no way they can prove you wrong as long they are related to interpersonal relations that they can't regulate.

Fight the sales channel on the public end, fight the bot using. The rest we're stuck with so just deal with it. I would type the letter differently.

qwerty · 05-26-2006, 12:25 PM

hi, they don't care

Dulze · 05-26-2006, 12:27 PM

i think the letter would have a major inmpact if we got a fue hundred people to actuly start new threads on the offical forums with this letter attached nbow we just need to get the word out to the outher servers

Magrid · 05-26-2006, 12:29 PM

ncsoft honestly doesnt care

*T4MM0* · 05-26-2006, 12:37 PM

=/ just =/

Matey · 05-26-2006, 12:51 PM

nc can ban anyone for any reason they want.
its their game and their servers.
if they dont like you they can ban you.
example... you can make a letter like this on their forum and they could ban you for it. not because its against the EULA.. but because its their choice who plays their game on their servers.
therefore they can ban all the farmers and bots if they so desired.
they dont need proof. but the fact is they make all their real money from asian servers.
and so the North America/Euro servers dont matter much. and the farmers/bots are a steady $15 a month per.
also the economy would really really suck if all the farmers got ban. all the basic mats would increase in price about 5 times. soo. i do hate the raid boss farmers and would love to see em go. and it does piss me off seing bot trains all over... but its not really something that can be easily dealt with... without big reprecussions.
and i just dont think nc cares.

skeetskeet · 05-26-2006, 12:57 PM

@Damien/Dulze - That's the next step.. Get this across to the other server boards that we plan on doing this. Then figuring out a time that would be best for a good amount of ppl to post it.

@Dua - Yes i know anyone that does this will get banned from the official forums most likely. But that was the original point, how many of us really participate on those forums anyhow?

@Ozzie - All valid points. The running shifts part though is against the EULA still if I remember correctly. As in they dont mind you account sharing, but having your toon on 24/7 out hunting is an obvious sign so they can take action in that sense.

Also large adena transfers doesn't just happen without a trace. As in, if i was to buy say a +'d out drac bow it would not be too difficult for them to track how I got the adena to do that.

@Everyone - The point of the letter isn't so much to tell NCSoft that people are botting or farming, its to show them that there's a good amount of their player base left that wants to see drastic actions taken against this. Like i said in the letter, I left the game for 6 months and before doing that had reported this same bot group everyday for about 2 weeks straight. When I came back 6 months later that same group was still in the spot I had left em just botting away. That's rediculous imo.

Dulze · 05-26-2006, 01:34 PM

skeet can i sugest this upcomming monday it is a north american holoday and ncsofts staff awlays seams to be horidley low on holodays we would probobley be able to reach a large portion of the people who read the forums before it gets deleeted

SithBlade · 05-26-2006, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeetskeet

Also large adena transfers doesn't just happen without a trace. As in, if i was to buy say a +'d out drac bow it would not be too difficult for them to track how I got the adena to do that.

Alot of people do transfer large sums of money when playing the market/crafting

Xanchra · 05-26-2006, 02:12 PM

simple every one Flood the fuckers and copy paste that to a Email to them
see if they get a point across or not worth a try maybe nailing there mail servers they might actuly read it

Diatress · 05-26-2006, 02:21 PM

Ok then lets all decide on a Day and delivery method.

Monday 5/29/2006 ---- is the day
___________________________________________
Do we all post invidually the letter on their forums?

and

Email an address?
-------------------------------------------------

Inflation has hit an all time high with no sign of dropping even with lawsuits. I welcome the forum ban.

Narsilia · 05-26-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SithBlade

Alot of people do transfer large sums of money when playing the market/crafting

That is true,

but when it comes down to transfering 100-200 mil from buying 1 arrow from a sell shop, then theres where they should be looking at. And how many times did we see that just by running into such shop by accident. Im sure NCsoft should do it easily.

Diatress · 05-26-2006, 02:30 PM

Admins sticky this, for once lets all fucking do something even if it won't matter.

Everyone can take 2 min outta their fucked up holiday to just post something inbetween playing with urself and making lunch, and post this letter up on their forumns k. Just do it ^_-.

Who gives a flying fuck if we're banned from their forum. Like we honestly give a shit.

--- Monday 5/29/06 @ 12am PST

Tigge · 05-26-2006, 02:37 PM

This is completely pointless. Many people have wrote their own, as NCSoft calls them, "Doomsday Threads". They just get deleted and 24 hours later, nobody cares about it. It doesn't matter that they have crappy customer service, as long as they are getting paid.

They ban farmers once in a blue moon so that farmers will buy new accounts and start farming again. This is a lot of money for them, and I guess it makes them feel happy that they can say "People are starting up new accounts everyday." If they were to just ban everyone using a bot program and constantly banning them every time the bots log in, the farmers would be gone. Yes, that is every player's wish, but to NCSoft that is probably 1/4 (just guessing) of their income gone from this game.

There is also a HUGE divide from the "hardcore" players and NCSoft. I suppose I am copying this from Hellrose's post, but it's true. Hardly anyone that would be considered a "factor" in the game posts on other forums, namely this one. The people that post on the official forums are going on about how they get griefed while they're fishing, or how hard the 2nd class change quests are. Does NCSoft care? In a small way, yes. But for the most part, they don't try to reach out to their core players.

So what can you do? To be honest, nothing. They have outsourced GM's who don't play the game. They have a handful of higher-tier GM's that are overworked. They have too few employees to handle all that goes on with Lineage 2. And most of all, Lineage 2 isn't the biggest money maker for NCSoft. This is a business that they're running and it's pointless to run a game at a loss. They don't have enough employees nor players to provide a better service to the players at the moment.

Everyone knows there are problems, but they won't get fixed. You will just get your account suspended for posting these so-called, "Doomsday Threads".

Diatress · 05-26-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigge

This is completely pointless. Many people have wrote their own, as NCSoft calls them, "Doomsday Threads". They just get deleted and 24 hours later, nobody cares about it. It doesn't matter that they have crappy customer service, as long as they are getting paid.

They ban farmers once in a blue moon so that farmers will buy new accounts and start farming again. This is a lot of money for them, and I guess it makes them feel happy that they can say "People are starting up new accounts everyday." If they were to just ban everyone using a bot program and constantly banning them every time the bots log in, the farmers would be gone. Yes, that is every player's wish, but to NCSoft that is probably 1/4 (just guessing) of their income gone from this game.

There is also a HUGE divide from the "hardcore" players and NCSoft. I suppose I am copying this from Hellrose's post, but it's true. Hardly anyone that would be considered a "factor" in the game posts on other forums, namely this one. The people that post on the official forums are going on about how they get griefed while they're fishing, or how hard the 2nd class change quests are. Does NCSoft care? In a small way, yes. But for the most part, they don't try to reach out to their core players.

So what can you do? To be honest, nothing. They have outsourced GM's who don't play the game. They have a handful of higher-tier GM's that are overworked. They have too few employees to handle all that goes on with Lineage 2. And most of all, Lineage 2 isn't the biggest money maker for NCSoft. This is a business that they're running and it's pointless to run a game at a loss. They don't have enough employees nor players to provide a better service to the players at the moment.

Everyone knows there are problems, but they won't get fixed. You will just get your account suspended for posting these so-called, "Doomsday Threads".

I didn't read a word u said cause i just hear crying. Post it on monday kk.

Tigge · 05-26-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diatress

I didn't read a word u said cause i just hear crying. Post it on monday kk.

Yes boohoo.

Anyways, I was trying to say why they don't care about botters, and that they don't care about their core players. And the fact that they won't change anything. So it's pointless.

Diatress · 05-26-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigge

Yes boohoo.

Anyways, I was trying to say why they don't care about botters, and that they don't care about their core players. And the fact that they won't change anything. So it's pointless.

We know all this, enough.
*gives u tissue, post monday k thx

skeetskeet · 05-26-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigge

Yes boohoo.

Anyways, I was trying to say why they don't care about botters, and that they don't care about their core players. And the fact that they won't change anything. So it's pointless.

You dont get somewhere by starting nowhere. Bottomline us sitting on these forums bitching all day definitely isn't going to get anything changed. Spamming the official boards and NCSofts e-mail boxes with a mass petition like letter should help in getting their attention a little bit more. B/c like you said, the official forums at this point are just filled with people crying about insignificant shit.

Matey · 05-26-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeetskeet

@Damien/Dulze - That's the next step.. Get this across to the other server boards that we plan on doing this. Then figuring out a time that would be best for a good amount of ppl to post it.

@Dua - Yes i know anyone that does this will get banned from the official forums most likely. But that was the original point, how many of us really participate on those forums anyhow?

@Ozzie - All valid points. The running shifts part though is against the EULA still if I remember correctly. As in they dont mind you account sharing, but having your toon on 24/7 out hunting is an obvious sign so they can take action in that sense.

Also large adena transfers doesn't just happen without a trace. As in, if i was to buy say a +'d out drac bow it would not be too difficult for them to track how I got the adena to do that.

@Everyone - The point of the letter isn't so much to tell NCSoft that people are botting or farming, its to show them that there's a good amount of their player base left that wants to see drastic actions taken against this. Like i said in the letter, I left the game for 6 months and before doing that had reported this same bot group everyday for about 2 weeks straight. When I came back 6 months later that same group was still in the spot I had left em just botting away. That's rediculous imo.

you just didnt quit long enough.
i quit for 16 months and all the farmers i knew got ban within that time >.>